Ruth Steinholtz on culture and values

[00:00:00] Sarah: Speak to the Human is a podcast that explores how we build connections with people in their professional work. It's about the human experience at work and about how to foster that connection and belonging to support people and their organizations to flourish. I'm your host, Sarah Abramson, and I'm looking forward to you joining me in hearing from our brilliant guests.

[00:00:29] In this episode, I'm joined by Ruth Steinholtz, an expert in business ethics and culture. Ruth is an author and speaker and leads her own consultancy business, rete work, helping organizations to develop insights into their cultures and how to nurture sustainable ethical practices, which are based on genuine values.

[00:00:48] In this conversation, she discusses how in order to succeed over the long term, organizations need to navigate culture change, business integrity, and values-driven leadership. And she [00:01:00] explains the methods she uses for shining a light on the real culture, the lived experience of people at all levels for an organization, as well as how an organization can harness values in order to thrive.

[00:01:13] She explains how she got into this area of work, including developing the approach of working with ethics ambassadors, and we also talk later in the podcast about Ruth's passion for cycling, and she brings a fascinating perspective on lessons about culture and values that we can learn from professional cycling.

[00:01:30] I hope you'll find this a thought provoking conversation. I certainly did. As always, please do drop me a line with any feedback or suggestions for future guests.

[00:01:42] Hi Ruth, it is great to be joined by you today in this episode. Thanks. Thanks for coming on to speak to the human we met in Munich, and um, it was just an absolute pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed talking with you about, um, the work that you do. Uh, it's, it's really fascinating and I [00:02:00] in talk how connection cycling.

[00:02:07] Um, I'm looking forward to our

[00:02:08] conversation. Welcome.

[00:02:09] Ruth: Thank you very much. Yes. Meeting you is one of the highlights of Munich and thank you very much for inviting me onto the podcast.

[00:02:15] Great. That's very kind. Thank you. But likewise, absolutely. We had some really good conversations there. I wanna share some of those conversations with other people.

[00:02:23] I think to start with, uh, please just sort of tell us a bit about the, the work that you do.

[00:02:27] So I, um, the work that I've done has changed quite a bit, but I'll just talk about what I've been doing since I, uh, stopped be being a corporate lawyer. So I. Initially I was working with larger organizations, helping them create more values-based ethics and compliance programs, and creating networks of ethics ambassadors, which is a concept that we may talk more about.

[00:02:50] Um, and that I think my team pioneered back in 2004, uh, in Copenhagen. And also as part of that, I would sometimes, uh, be [00:03:00] looking at the values of large, these large organizations and how to use them to underpin all of this. I've gravitated more and more toward doing, uh, cultural assessments based on a values tool that I use.

[00:03:13] Again, we'll talk about that a bit more. And then really working on ethics from a culture and values perspective. Sometimes without actually it being quote about ethics, um, consciously. So I think more and more I've gone from the strictly ethics and compliance focus. To a more organizational focused leadership, uh, based on true values, authentic values that are identified through a process of consultation, dialogue, talking, speaking to the people in the organization.

[00:03:48] And so I set up a rente work. So I started, because I came from a corporate background working with, uh, large PLCs, for example. And now I'm working, I've worked with regulators, I've worked with [00:04:00] law firms, charities. So I've worked with, uh, NGOs. I've worked with a lot of different kinds of organizations, and as I said in the beginning, I was helping large companies set up global networks of ethics, ambassadors and, and maybe make their approach to compliance, more ethics and values and culture and less compliance.

[00:04:19] Usually begging them to lose the word compliance out of their job description, the name of their department, their title, et cetera. And not always successfully. A lot of people wouldn't do it. But you know, I would say, look how many people when you say, oh, you're gonna get a visit from a compliance person, or especially compliance officer are gonna go, oh, yay, I can't wait.

[00:04:41] You know, nobody, I mean, really no one. And I, I think this is part of a lesson from being a lawyer and in a company, is that you had to make the legal department human. Because people were threatened by the the legal department, even before you showed your face or they [00:05:00] even knew you. They knew, they thought they didn't like you, and they were defensive.

[00:05:04] Okay? Never met. You, don't know anything about you. I don't like you. So you have to overcome this. You have to make yourself useful, supportive. Which isn't to say you don't challenge. In fact, you're, you can challenge more once you get more contact because you know more about what's really happening. You, you're able to make more intelligent observations rather than spending an hour arguing about whether the word reasonable should be, you know, what does mean all this crap that lawyers sometimes do.

[00:05:30] Sarah: I think that's. So important that, I mean, that's the whole concept really of, of what we're trying to do is speak to the human is, um, particularly in areas that can have the, the, the danger or fall into a typical pattern of being seen as being process driven or all about regulation or faceless that actually still trying to do with everything.

[00:05:53] We have to deal with humans, we have to deal with people, and we, we start thinking about human psychology, human behavior, how [00:06:00] best to engage people, that that's just a much more positive and, um, a, a more likely way that we have successful connections.

[00:06:08] Ruth: Well, exactly. And then ultimately what we're trying to do will be more successful.

[00:06:13] Also, a a, a big factor in that is because they'll come to you earlier. Yeah. If they're afraid to come to you or they think you're, that, you're going, I think what, what happens? With a lot of lawyers and compliance people is if they're in a situation where all they're seeing are the screw ups, they start to think that all of their business people are stupid.

[00:06:33] Right. Okay. And, and even if they don't articulate that, it comes across so people feel patronized. Mm-hmm. Nobody likes to feel that way. And that's the, it's an occupational hazard if you're in that sort of a legal or compliance role. Whereas if you're working together as a partner to, to solve a problem, how can we do this?

[00:06:52] Whatever this is in a way and you're helping them figure that out proactively. You save them time, you save the company money and you save [00:07:00] resource. 'cause you don't end up in a costly lawsuit or in in some mess. Absolutely. And I think, you know that carried over. Um, into when I working in ethics thinking.

[00:07:12] Okay, it's the same thing. Yeah. We need people to feel, first of all, that they're a participant, that we're consulting, that we're talking to them, and that we respect the fact that they have knowledge. The biggest challenge that I had as a consultant in the beginning when I was working with legal departments or compliance departments, creating teams of, or networks of ethics ambassadors, was convincing the lawyers that the ethics ambassadors who were again, just normal employees in all kinds of different.

[00:07:39] Parts of the organization could go out and do the training in the, in the ethics policy or the code. Now obviously we would create a draft presentation ourselves. You wouldn't just say, go do train the code and send them out unprepared. But they would say, oh, they couldn't possibly do a presentation on [00:08:00] the Bribery Act, or you know, on what's in the code.

[00:08:03] And I'm like, so here we have people who, for example, are running these unbelievably complicated. Reactors, they're doing all this chemical stuff for, you know, things which I couldn't even begin to understand and we're saying that they couldn't talk about the code. There's something wrong with this picture, you know?

[00:08:21] Yeah. So that was a big challenge. Ultimately, I succeeded because. In one case, uh, when we were doing a network training, a thing, we created a, a, a draft presentation on, on the first day that one of the lawyers presented it to the whole group just so they'd hear what we thought was in it. We gave them the presentation.

[00:08:41] We said, look, you do what you want with this, you know, you can change it as long as you don't change the factual part of it, but how it's presented and how you do it, it's up to you. Well. I was in tears the next day. Mostly tears of laughter. Okay. Because, but also, I was just so [00:09:00] touched. They had taken this, they were so excited because we'd asked them to do it their way.

[00:09:06] Some of the things were so creative and, you know, and when you're having fun, you learn better. A hundred percent. Yeah. So I, I think we have to have more faith in a way, in the people in our organization. At the same time, one of the things that I've always. Said and done with ethics ambassadors is facilitation training, presentation, training.

[00:09:27] You know, don't so take people who are good communicators to the extent that you can, and then the ones that are not the best communicators or anybody who wants it, gives them an opportunity to improve their communication skills, particularly facilitation, because I think ethics is best communicated through facilitation of discussion.

[00:09:50] Scenarios rather than just droning on about, you know, a law or the code or something like that.

[00:09:57] Sarah: So in the work you do [00:10:00] now with, um, work how. What does that look like in terms of the approach that you take and how you, with, with the culture and with the ethics, how do you help organizations to understand their own culture?

[00:10:14] Where do you start with it?

[00:10:15] Ruth: Okay, so around 2016 or 17, Chris Hodges, who, uh, was it the time at Oxford? Um, and is now the chair of the, uh, regulatory Horizons Council. And before all of that, was also a lawyer, which is how I knew him. He and I wrote this book, ethical Business Practice and Regulation Together.

[00:10:35] Uh, and that is what that book sort of pushed me more in the direction of working with regulators, working with smaller organizations, et cetera. But to answer your question, what I, what I do when I'm, when I can convince a client to do it, I try to start with the cultural values assessment, a Barrett assessment, and that's because.

[00:10:55] It's a way of, first of all, consulting everyone in the organization. [00:11:00] It doesn't matter how many people in the organization, it's Stu. There, there are literally three questions. What are your top 10 personal values? What are the top 10 values that you're experiencing from day-to-day in your organization, team, whatever kind of group that we're assessing, and what are the top 10 values and behaviors that you think would, would take your organization to reach its highest potential?

[00:11:22] Sarah: I really like those, and I can remember from talking to you back in the autumn, those really stuck in my mind of being so important because you kind of, you're starting with one that is really reflecting on your own personal perspective, your own experience of, of the world, not just in work, but what do I care how was motivating me and as a leader, how am I bringing those?

[00:11:48] How is it actually happening? What

[00:11:50] Ruth: does it look like? Yeah. What's really happening? Yeah.

[00:11:52] Sarah: Yeah. But then I love that kind of future perspective too, of what, what would we need it to be if we want to, you [00:12:00] know, we moving beyond, okay, we've got these business objectives, which is kind of the, the, the typical way of a board think.

[00:12:08] This is what our business strategy is gonna be actually making a connection with how do we need that to play out in terms of the environment we're creating, the culture behaviors that we're encouraging.

[00:12:18] Ruth: Exactly. And that last question, in my opinion is the, is the real key to why is such a positive tool?

[00:12:28] In other words, it, it's, yes. It, it creates, there is a, a measurement in there of what they call cultural entropy. I call it culture risk. Um, basically it's the amount of dysfunction or, uh, noise or problems, frustration that that is in the organization. And because the template that you use that people pick the values from, contain words like, I don't know, power, um, information hoarding, you know, control.

[00:12:59] So there's some [00:13:00] what would be negative or potentially negative. They're potentially limiting, let's call them values as Barrett calls them. You can get a sense of how much dysfunction there is in the organization and how much dysfunction there is. Culture risk is directly related to ethics because the more dysfunction, the more the less people are gonna be or care about behaving ethically.

[00:13:25] And in fact, if it's really bad, they may be thinking about sabotage or, uh, I couldn't give it to him or whatever, but. So it's and, and be the way Barrett can be constructed. You can cut it by location, by business unit, however you wanna cut it. You can also figure out where there might be pockets of issues and where there's really, things are going really well.

[00:13:47] And then you can do sort of think, okay, what are they doing over there? It might be useful to fix or help solve some of the issues that are occurring. That's really interesting,

[00:13:58] Sarah: isn't it? Like spotting those, uh, [00:14:00] commonalities, but where they're dis disconnected and they're never gonna make an association.

[00:14:04] So you said already that you run that exercise across the organization. Different, different levels across the organization. Different,

[00:14:11] Ruth: everybody. Everybody. I mean literally, literally everybody.

[00:14:14] Sarah: How do you actually get that information outta people?

[00:14:17] Ruth: Okay, well, so you send it, it. For, for those who have computers, which these days is like 99% of the people, you send a link to a, uh, a website where they just log in, give a couple of demographic, not their name, and we never cut it down so low that people could be recognized.

[00:14:34] Uh, they, they pick these, they answer the three questions by picking words off of the list. Then the Barrett, uh, value center prepares. A pack of the da, they take the data and, and analyze it into slides, basically different ways of plotting the data. Um, and then that's sent to the consultant. By that time, you've probably also had done interviews.

[00:14:59] You know, you've got [00:15:00] whoever it is that brought you in, have taught, told you a lot about the organization, and if you're lucky, you've been able to talk to senior leaders or some of them, um, to get a sense and maybe a few other people. So then that is the beginning of the work. So that's not the end of the work.

[00:15:14] It's the beginning. Basically. You then, um, together with whoever your sponsor is, set up workshops. And the second challenge I generally have is getting them to, um, allow me to do more workshops than they want me to. And, uh, it's always fewer than I want to because the more people I talk to, the more diverse.

[00:15:35] Because you have this raw data which shows you what the top 10 values that people have voted for in terms of their own, what's going on in the organization and what will fix what is going on. You also can actually look deeper or you can see right down to 20. Um, and that gives you themes. So you can see maybe people have chosen words that are similar, but not, and not, so you can look at, get much more [00:16:00] data by looking at the wider scope and um, and then you.

[00:16:05] Present that data or some, not all of it, 'cause it'd be overwhelming, but you present it in workshops where you then, depending on what the organization is trying to do, so for example, uh, we need to identify our values. So the workshops would then be aimed at, okay, here are the desired culture values, these are the values that you think would help the organization reach its highest potential.

[00:16:29] Here are the current ones. Some of them may be the same. If the organization is doing well, people are generally happy. You'll find alignment between those. If it's not, you probably won't. And uh, also you talked to 'em about the culture, risk factors that you found there. What's going on? It's usually hierarchy, bureaucracy, things like that.

[00:16:50] People not bad communication. Uh, the usual suspects, I call them because they keep coming up over and over again. I. You look at disconnects [00:17:00] between what's important to people generally, and this is all based on a, a, a really wonderful model that Richard Barrett created called the Seven Levels. So the values are organized into these levels, and you'll find sometimes people are really more interested in finding meaning and purpose in their lives, for example.

[00:17:17] But all the values of the company are down in, uh, systems and processes and, and money. Uh, so okay, how do we get. What's going on here? How are we gonna motivate people who care more ab you know, who care about a wider scope, wanting to not just to be focused only on profit. And also if an organization is, is fully focused on a few, one or two levels, they're probably very lopsided,

[00:17:45] Sarah: right?

[00:17:46] Ruth: So companies need to have obviously a focus on the bottom line and health and safety, sort of survival or viability aspects. They need to be focused on relationships, which is level two. They need to be focused on [00:18:00] level three, which is about systems and processes and uh, and then, but they also have to have energy for change, level four.

[00:18:07] Uh, and then things like meaning and purpose, good relations with your internally and externally and the planet, et cetera. So there's these seven levels and a really successful organization is gonna have values. In all these levels somewhere. In other words, someone's gonna be paying attention to all of these things.

[00:18:28] Even if, if you're only focused on saving the world, but you're not paying attention to the bottom line, that's not gonna work either. So it's a question of where are we focused today? Where do we need to be focused and what do our people care about? And how do we sort of bring all this together? But it, it works from a, a very conceptual level, but it also works.

[00:18:51] On a very, um, concrete level. So from, from the dis first of all, from the [00:19:00] discussions, I always ask about specific things that could make things better. They could be very specific, they could be better coffee machine in the kitchen, or a better kitchen, or they might be, you know, quite complicated strategic things depending on the group.

[00:19:17] And. So, as I said, depends on what they're trying to do. Are they using this to either identify or test their values or are they using it as part of a cultural change program? Um, and figuring out, you know, how to direct their change, uh, efforts from a ethics and compliance perspective, it can be used to figure out, okay, I have limited resources basically in the ethics and compliance department.

[00:19:45] Where do I need to spend my time? Well, if I have a business unit that has 40% of the values that people chose, were potentially limited, limiting negative values, I'm gonna spend more time there than in one where things are going [00:20:00] well. People are generally happy just because it's pretty much, you can't, you can't be absolutely sure, but you can be pretty sure that in that place where there's a lot of culture risk, there's gonna be a lot of bad behavior or indifference to bad behavior.

[00:20:15] So that's, it can be used in a lot of ways. So depending on what my, what I'm working on. But it's for me, if, if, if you can start with a values assessment, it has two advantages. One, it means you consult with and talk to a lot of people in the organization and they feel part of it. So by the time you end this, which takes a few months, depending on how quick the organization is to make people available, et cetera, you have people who are committed to the outcome in terms of both.

[00:20:44] The values that have been chosen and articulated and some of the steps that have been outlined as a result of all of the information that you've gathered. So it means that your culture change work is more likely to be, again, aimed at doing [00:21:00] the things you need to do and, and not just puttered away on just basic vanilla.

[00:21:06] Well, we need to have more training. Mm. It it's a way of getting much more targeted. Knowledge and it's a way of organizing and engaging and, and people get, I mean, I've had some, it's a silly example, but recently I've been doing one of these with an organization, and after one of the first workshops, this man came up to me and said, you know, I've been here for, I don't know, year, they've been there a decade or something.

[00:21:30] No one has ever asked my opinion on anything before. He said he was so happy. I mean, he was just ecstatic that he, I was like, hopefully, you know, he was, he was a facilities guy, you know? Okay. But so he was walking around the organ, the place all the time. Probably he's got eyes and a brain.

[00:21:51] Sarah: People like that have so much later information and knowledge and experience.

[00:21:55] They're an absolute goldmine. What would be, uh. Who [00:22:00] are typically the, the people, the, the roles that would be your sponsor and bring you in and what might trigger them doing that?

[00:22:07] Ruth: So in initially, I was mainly brought in by people in either legal or ethics and compliance. More recently it's been more HR or leadership development.

[00:22:16] Okay. Uh, or CEOs, um, or, you know, somebody in senior leadership who realizes that there's an issue

[00:22:24] Sarah: and do they have a clear objective, a clear sense of what they wanna achieve through the experts?

[00:22:29] Ruth: Okay. Third challenge maybe to talk about, um, if their, if their objective is to revisit or identify their values, answer is yes, usually.

[00:22:40] Um, and, uh, I think they're usually surprised by how much other information comes out of this exercise that they can use for management purposes, leadership purposes, if it's a more general culture thing. I think the answer to that often is, no, they're not entirely, you know, they [00:23:00] know they have an issue, but they don't quite know what they want to do about it.

[00:23:04] Um, and yes, this helps them figure that out. Uh, and then the question is. Will they stick with it? You know, that something will be useful and focused on for a while and then the next best thing comes in or whatever, and it becomes difficult to, um, maintain focus. And that is I think one of my biggest frustrations as a consultant.

[00:23:26] Well, there's two. One is I don't think of myself as a consultant. I think of myself as a team member for the time being that I'm working with the organization. Yeah. The fact that I'm paid externally to me is irrelevant, but it isn't to them often in the sense that they tend to think of you as you're sort of out there, and that means you don't get things communicated to you.

[00:23:47] Right. So you don't always know things just maybe because you're not, you can't get into their SharePoint or. Whatever, or you're not in all the meetings where people, where it would be useful. Um, but the, the [00:24:00] other frustration is people think senior team seems to be okay. It's great now we know all this stuff and we're really happy.

[00:24:06] We've re restated our values and reengaged with them and we're really happy with them. Thank you. And then, you know, six months later or a year later when you go back or talk to people, the amount of. Engagement has lessened now, right? It depends a lot on internal people, because if you've got, you know, if you've got somebody wherever they are, whether they're in HR or compliance or ethics or whatever, who really has both the, um, can take this board in terms of the time that they can spend on it, it can, you know, it is fine.

[00:24:40] But if, um, people are so busy these days with so many different things that they're trying to do all at once. That this can, I think, um, fall down on the list of priorities because I do, I really think it's the rare senior leader who really [00:25:00] gets in their gut, not just intellectually, but I think until, unless and until the CEO and the senior team really understand how much easier this makes their job, how much more information they're gonna have, how much the culture will facilitate things happening.

[00:25:17] In a way that you need fewer rules. Um, I think it was, is it one of the French philosophers? Integrity has no need of rules. He said, you know, it's not as, you don't need rules. Of course, you need rules, but you need far fewer rules and you don't need to refer to them so often when you have a good culture and strong value.

[00:25:37] Sarah: Well, so something that I'm, I'm in how.

[00:25:47] You've.

[00:25:51] Practical application so that it's got the longevity and it turns into a difference in how people behave and what they're doing in their day. Um, [00:26:00] actions and interactions as colleagues and, and how it turns into something that actually lives out in reality.

[00:26:07] Ruth: I think there's, there's that. You can ask that on several levels.

[00:26:11] I'm sure you're familiar with all of them, but the, the first one that I would say, um, which is relevant to a piece of work that you guys have done. Is to create some memorable visual, and I hate to call it branding, but in a way it is branding of the whole thing. So at the moment, for example, working with an organization in a particular area and one of their internal people's very creative has come up with some really beautiful ways to communicate about the values and, and bring the values into people's consciousness through some objects and.

[00:26:46] And some exercises and things to do. So whatever you would call that, that material to make it values continue to be salient in people's minds. Um, I think that's important. [00:27:00] Uh, and I mean, when I was working on the BOAL as ethics policy, I have to tell you, I spent almost as much time on the way it looked and than I did on what it said, um, because.

[00:27:12] Things have to be attractive. People have to want to look at them. They have to wanna pick them up or keep them with them. So I think that it's not trivial at all to say you really need these communication tools. Um, and, and they're important. So that's one level. The next level is the strategy, so writing the values into the strategy, which is an exercise that we've just recently done.

[00:27:36] Making sure that the strategy is not in conflict with the values. Uh, so you say you value this, but you're doing your strategy is to do that. Uh, okay. And you can't have both those things. So, so what are you gonna do about that? So really having the senior team look at it from a strategic perspective and the board, um, if, if we're really serious about these values, [00:28:00] this is, we need to look at our strategy and make sure we're aligned.

[00:28:03] So that helps when you're, when big decisions are being made from the top, they're in line with the values and that which is perpetuating a positive culture. And then in the middle, so we've got the communication, we've got the, the sort of coming from the top strategy. We've got what specific things like do we need leadership development done in a different way?

[00:28:28] Do we need, do we have it at all? Do we need it? Yes, no doubt. They always need it. Um, what sort of, uh, learning opportunities are needed to make sure people have the skills? So, for example, if one of the things that always comes up is better communication, better listening, particularly more, uh, you know, genuine listening, and then there is specific, let's say what, you know, programs.

[00:28:56] For work that they're doing. How do we make sure that, you know, what do we need to do [00:29:00] about how this work is organized? Is the, do we have the right teams on this? Are we, do we have better ways to communicate about, you know, how do we know what are the skillset sets of people across the organization that we might be ignoring?

[00:29:12] Can we set up ways so you, it really can operate at all different levels and the more of these different areas that you focus on. The more likely that the sort of gestalt of the whole of the thing will result in a tendency more to go in a positive life-affirming direction and get away from some of the negative, uh, things that were happening, that were bringing the tone down and demotivating people.

[00:29:41] And, um, you know, some of it might be, uh, might be compensation and benefits and things like that, but usually it's more how they're treated. How much challenge and growth possibilities they have in their own jobs. Um, you know, and there's a whole [00:30:00] variety of things. If, if people are able to grow and feel better about themselves, of course they're gonna show up in the organization.

[00:30:07] And when I first started talking about this back in say, 2004, nobody was talking about values and culture, et cetera. Now everybody's talking about it. Sometimes they think they're talking about it, but they're not. So they're. They talk about culture and they say, yes, we have to do more training on the code, but that's, that's not culture.

[00:30:26] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, well, you mentioned that some of the challenges around being a consultant is that sometimes you kind of, it's hard to be involved as much as you would like to be. I, I'm wondering about whether you get the opportunity often to see the effect of the work that you've done sort of in a year or two's time, or whether that's Yeah.

[00:30:47] It just goes into the ether and you, you don't find out

[00:30:50] Ruth: sometimes I do. Um, I mean, and I think. One of the areas where I have is ethics ambassadors because, um, that has become an [00:31:00] approach used globally by tons of organizations. They don't always, you know, they don't know where it came from in many cases, in effect.

[00:31:05] Some people ignore where it came from, but that's another story. But I had one client who was, uh, probably the most difficult client I've ever had, and in fact, um, I'll be honest, we the, we stopped working together before the end of the project. Um, and about 6, 5, 6 years later, there was a post on LinkedIn that was, I mean, it blew my mind because the person that I'd been working with basically said this was one of the best things that she'd ever worked on in her entire career.

[00:31:36] Wow. And that, and gave me the, you know, the recognized that I had laid all the foundations for it. Oh, amazing. Amazing. Um, and that just how amazing it was, et cetera, and that Yeah. I mean, so sometimes you have to wait a long time before.

[00:31:51] Sarah: That's really interesting that, that, that was a difficult relationship.

[00:31:55] And I think almost there's a lot because if people are experiencing discomfort, [00:32:00] friction, something that they're struggling with to, to make a change, I suppose it simultaneously demonstrates that that is. Significant, it's important to them and that it has the potential to kind of open something that's a kind of worms that maybe they don't wanna look at yet and they have to be ready to do it.

[00:32:20] Yeah. Feel like they've come to it themselves. But that in itself is really interesting, isn't it?

[00:32:25] Ruth: And the culture in that organization was terrible. I mean, I didn't do a, a cultural values assessment there, but you didn't need to to figure out. And in fact, there've been several. I mean, it was a public company, so there've been things in the news that indicate that the culture was really bad.

[00:32:39] But yes, I think they were struggling with things. Uh, and, and I'll be, you know, to even, I think, you know, I, so I did this executive coaching diploma after I left the law, partly because I need, I wanted to use the time just to think about what was I gonna do, um, but also because I realized that, you know, as a lawyer, people come to you and they want answers.

[00:32:59] [00:33:00] But if you're gonna help people, you can't give them answers so much. I mean, you can give them some answers, but you actually, what you have to do is give them questions. Did they answer? Um, and in fact, one of the things that I'm tr doing with the, my current, uh, project with the, where we've got with these values is coming up with lists of questions so you know, if you have a value, um, what questions could you ask yourself to know whether you in this moment are living the value with ethics?

[00:33:31] One of the first questions and is a bit of a problem because the first question is, do I have an ethical dilemma? But if they're not even looking at the ethical decision making model because they don't think that they have an ethical issue, they're not gonna go and ask the other questions. So. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:48] But, but I think it's, it's really important to get that balance between being a consultant in the sense of bringing your knowledge and, you know, 'cause [00:34:00] we, you know, obviously we have knowledge and expertise or we wouldn't be doing what we're doing, but also doing it in a way that's more. Where you're getting those people to, you know, be getting your client to think for themselves because you're gonna be, whatever happens, you're not gonna be there, you know, one year, five years, whatever.

[00:34:18] And they're gonna have to be doing it themselves.

[00:34:20] Sarah: Ruth, this is such an interesting area that you specialize in. Can you share a bit about your background career and how you ended up doing this work?

[00:34:28] Ruth: Yeah, that's a very good question. I, at first, I would say I got into it in a way without having a plan. Um, originally when I went to university, I was fascinated with culture in the sense of cultural anthropology.

[00:34:40] And I did start out studying that, but through a variety of flukes, I ended up. Um, moving more towards, uh, social psychology, psychology, general social sciences, et cetera. And, and then ended up going to law school, which was maybe not an obvious thing to do when you're [00:35:00] interested in culture, but the, the, the thread through everything I was thinking about at the time in terms of what I wanted to do.

[00:35:10] Was more not what I wanted to do, but where I wanted to do it. And then that would lead to, okay, what might I be able to do? And I, the where was always Europe that I, I aimed at an international law firm and ultimately they sent me off for a temporary assignment to Milan. And because I spoke Spanish, once I got there, I literally clung onto staying, although it wasn't an obvious thing to do either from a career perspective.

[00:35:39] Or financially, I mean, anyway, the, between the, the 1980s I spent mostly between Milan and Cairo. Wow. And that was an amazing experience because I was working in small offices where I might have to do all sorts of different things, and it was all multicultural. I learned Italian, uh uh, quite quickly 'cause of [00:36:00] my Spanish, I think.

[00:36:01] And because I was determined to do it and I was alone, so I needed to be able to communicate. Um, but so I've always been interested in cultures, but the point was that I just, I, I started to think about d different values and different cultures and how they affected your life. And then ultimately I got myself back into a more, let's say, normal, uh, career trajectory by going in house.

[00:36:26] But anyway, I lived in North London and, and commuted out, so that was about 1991. And I was a region council for Can Bury Schwepps. And um, eventually I left and went to work for a pharmaceutical, um, medical device company. So there was no one industry in my career. Um, you know, that's always, I've always been very eclectic, which is a, I've always been a generalist and so I've always looked at the connections between different areas and that became more and more obvious in my [00:37:00] in-house career.

[00:37:01] And, um, as well as sort of general counsel. Then I started getting interested in leadership because I, to be honest, most of my own bosses, let's say, had not been great managers. I became really determined that I would not do that to the people who ended up reporting to me. Mm-hmm. Um, and, um, I was very lucky in the sense that.

[00:37:26] I was able to get some fantastic coaching, and so coaching came into my world, let's say, at Allergan, and, and that sort of was the beginning of a big change because I realized that I, I could do things differently in terms of managing people. And I also realized how important it was, um, to be able to motivate people in a positive way rather than just leaving them to struggle on their own.

[00:37:55] And so I've always, I, I think when I look at my career has been [00:38:00] integrating more and more different things while not losing sight. I mean, I enjoyed the legal aspects of what I was doing, for sure, but I think general counsels should, um, really understand that they're not just lawyers, they're they're managers, leaders, and, and that became a big focus of the latter part of my corporate career.

[00:38:21] And ethics meanwhile, was always there because the, um, foreign corrupt practices act meant that we had to have ethics policies and, but it was quite, yeah, it was just there as a perfunctory kind of thing. Until, until really I hit Borealis and that was my, I became global general counsel of this petrochemical company based in Copenhagen.

[00:38:44] And quite soon after I joined, while I was trying to dig out of the mess of what was the legal department when I got there, uh, somebody said, oh, well, you know, you really, we need to rewrite the ethics policy. So I went looking for the ethics [00:39:00] policy and found two completely different documents with no indication of which one was which and how they related to one another.

[00:39:07] And then, and they said, well, can you rewrite this? And I said, I could. But it would be, wouldn't be worth a piece of paper that I wrote it on, if I just write it and send it up mm-hmm. To the legal department. Um, nobody will pay any attention to it. It probably won't be very good. So, just incredibly coincidentally, they, um, boreal was at the time sending people to IMD business school.

[00:39:31] So I said, well, I'd really like to go to IMD to this, you know, leadership development course. And why don't we make the ethics or ethics engine, you know, a one of the project teams. And the first response was, why would we send a lawyer to a management, a leadership? And I said, well, my budget is over a million.

[00:39:53] I have people reporting to me, why is this any different than procurement or something? Oh, [00:40:00] okay. Ah, and um. So we created a small team of people in, from various parts of the organization and on this ethics excellence thing. And, um, out of that we did a massive consultation and that little team, we, I think, uh, created the concept of ethics ambassadors, um, and implemented it.

[00:40:28] And, uh, that was. Really quite fundamental because it meant that you were, you weren't just building up a central compliance team. What then happened was people asked me, I started speaking at conferences about this approach and what we were doing and why we were doing more ethics and culture and less compliance and all the rest of it.

[00:40:49] And then, um, ultimately the company, the share there was changes in the shareholding. We moved to Vienna. I met it, which was fantastic. I spent a few years in Vienna, but. [00:41:00] The, um, company. Anyway, I left and uh, I decided I didn't want another general counsel role. I did look for in-house head of ethics and compliance roles, but by that time, I have to say if you think sex discrimination is a problem, wait until you get to age discrimination.

[00:41:22] Yeah, I mean sex discrimination always. There was still a possibility of fighting it. 10 or 15 years ago. Age was, and I wasn't even that old, but, um, yeah, I just decided if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna have to do it on my own. So I set up, and also I, the other real motivator for setting up on my own was all of the consulting firms that I could have gone to potentially.

[00:41:49] Working on this, we're doing compliance. And what they were doing was they were helping their clients set up these unbelievably complicated compliance processes that, in my opinion, were useless and [00:42:00] in fact counterproductive. And I'm boring. Uh, and there's one thing I don't like to be, life is bored. So, uh, so I, I thought, okay, if I'm gonna do what I want to do, which is really get people to understand that it's about their culture.

[00:42:17] That it needs to be based on their values and that it has to be attractive and interesting. And, and it can be, there's a lot of it which can be done by normal people in the organization who have other jobs, but who, as part of what they do, get a bit more understanding of the various aspects of ethics and compliance and values.

[00:42:37] Sarah: If I can ask you a Yeah. Slightly different type of question. So it's, it's been really interesting, fascinating hearing from you about, um, your experiences of. Strands together, threads together, how your background has helped you to do that, and how embedding yourself in different cultures has given you perspectives.

[00:42:55] And, uh, I think that that's such a, such a positive [00:43:00] way of being able to pull things together and bring different views, uh, instead of kind of staying in a box, uh. And when I heard you speaking, you were talking about your passion with cycling, cycling, enthusia a cyclist yourself, and you were drawing some comparisons between the world of professional cycling and business ethics.

[00:43:23] Yeah. Great. To, if you can share some insights from that.

[00:43:25] Ruth: I mean, I think that, um, first of all, in, in so roads, I'm talking about road cycling 'cause it's different from say, cycl lacrosse or whatever in road cycling. What, one of the things that I think is, is analogous and is fascinating is you have, on the one hand, these people who are incredible have to be incredible athletes.

[00:43:49] I mean, and they have to dedicate themselves to becoming the best. And, um, so there's this individual excellence, or for want of a better word, I think there would [00:44:00] be a better word if I could think of it. Um, but if they can't work as part of a team. They can't win generally. I mean, there are some exceptions occasionally, whatever.

[00:44:10] But you so, so the, I don't know if it's ego, but whatever it takes to the drive to become so good yourself individually, but yet at the same time to merge yourself into a team. And the same thing has to happen in an organization that we need people who are really good at all the various things that they're doing.

[00:44:32] But if they're loners most of the time or if they're not able to work in a team, it's gonna disrupt and the and the results are gonna be less. So how that happens, that's one of the things. And the other I think is this is communication because, I mean, both before, during, after a a race, so you've got people on a team, generally there's more than one nationality and.

[00:44:58] Language, [00:45:00] uh, on a team. Some teams are predominantly Spanish or French or whatever, but you always have writers from different countries on those teams. So you're, you're both trying to meld together a team of people that come from different cultures, and also you're trying to communicate with people who have different language abilities.

[00:45:18] And you're on the road and you're going, I don't know, 60 kilometers an hour down a steep hill, or you're what you, and you're in a peloton with, which PEs are. Unbelievable. If you look at a Peloton one day in the tour or the Giro or something, you've got, you know, a hundred riders centimeters from each other.

[00:45:37] That's

[00:45:37] Sarah: terrifying on a

[00:45:38] Ruth: road. You just like, how the hell is, are they not all falling all the time? Yeah. Yeah. So, so it's the, how do you make it, how do you communicate effectively in, in a situation where people are dispersed, whether it's globally or on a, in a race or wherever. Um, I think those are [00:46:00] two of them.

[00:46:00] I think, um, you know, the issues around, uh, obviously cycling has had more than its share of ethical issues, um, and how it's dealt with them I think is part of what I was talking about there. But there are things to be learned, um, from how cycling has coped and improved because it has, it's not perfect, but it has improved drastically, I would say.

[00:46:26] The culture of, of road cycling has improved. Um, so there may be individuals still doing things they shouldn't be doing, but the culture overall has improved. Um, but I just think it's, it's this, um, combination of the, the motivation to be really good at something. But to do it with other people.

[00:46:50] Sarah: Yeah, I really like that.

[00:46:51] And I, what I particularly enjoy with that is, um, I suppose it's a habit that we could all get into more often of, of thinking beyond [00:47:00] the, uh, work environment that we're in and looking for things we understand and we know about that reflect human behavior. And that's what we're talking about, isn't it? To come back to the earlier conversation we were having is ways in which we can understand people exist in all these different spheres that we're in in life.

[00:47:18] And we can learn from all of them to help inform and improve the way that we interact, the way that we communicate, the way that we work together more effectively. So, yeah, I, I, I love that you brought that whole story in. It was just so positive.

[00:47:32] Ruth: There's another, again, which is relevant to compliance, that parallel, which is risk.

[00:47:37] So, you know, in cycling, road cycling, you're constantly assessing risk and you're assessing it from the point of view of the rider who's actually on the bike, but also the. The, um, people in the car behind the bike and the people on the bus that are watching what's going on on the screen. And, and again, how do you assess risk?

[00:47:56] How do you set limits? You know, what risks are you [00:48:00] taking? Um, how, how do you, uh, collectively agree? What risks are acceptable? I mean, road cycling is quite a risky sport. In fact, right now there's a lot of argument and, um, justifiably about the number of. Horrendous accidents, including death, uh, which have occurred and why cycling hasn't been made safer.

[00:48:23] And, um, you know, again, why is the workplace often not as safe as it could be? Now, it's pretty hard at cycling because by definition it's road cycling. You are cycling on the road, okay? The roads are closed, usually mostly, um, but there's just certain hazards that you can't. Minimize. Um, so how do you make them more obvious?

[00:48:46] Um, and, and there are a variety of things, but the bit like Formula One, which has really reduced the risk to the drivers significantly since Sena died. I think, um, [00:49:00] rose cycling could still do more. I

[00:49:03] Sarah: went to an F1 exhibition that's been on at the Excel center. I went in early December, and uh, as part of, it's a really good exhibition.

[00:49:12] My son's a massive F1 fan and he's kind of, it's the least likely sport for me to be engaged. Actually. He's really because of his obsession with it. I've got more, uh, understanding of it over the last five, six years and actually I, I do really enjoy it now. Anyway, we went to this exhibition and, uh, one of the final displays is the carcass of car that Roman ham.

[00:49:39] Back in, I think that was about four years ago. Um, if, if people, listeners saw that crash, it was, you'll remember it horrendous. He went into the barrier, it exploded in flames. He, I'm sure it felt like an eter, but he escaped from the vehicle in a few seconds and had to volt [00:50:00] over the, the crash barrier. But the vehicle itself broke into, and when you look at it.

[00:50:06] It's a burned out shell and it is absolutely horrifying. Terrifying. But a human escaped. Yeah. Un had a few to his hands and that was it. He was basically untouched. It's absolutely amazing. Yeah. And uh, I think as an analogy for how we can do, like how we can. Protect things without losing some of the excitement of life.

[00:50:35] Ruth: Yeah. That, that's the constant argument and or discussion in cycling is how, 'cause you know, for example, the fans in some places are right there when they're going up these climbs and they've got the fans all. Converging on them and things. That's part that is, you know, part of cycling. Although the drinking that the fans have been doing for the last two days before they get there doesn't help.

[00:50:57] It does not help. Things like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:51:00] Yeah. Um, I think there's one other thing about, uh, cycling, which is you don't really, you can't enjoy until you understand just how complicated the strategies and tactics are. Which is why I think it takes time. I know I started listening to this thing, the cycling podcast, which is fantastic.

[00:51:18] Um, set of podcasts about cycling and, and analyzing all the different stages of the tour and the Giro and introducing you to the, the riders and all the rest of it. And little by little I 'cause you otherwise you can think it would be like washing paint dry. Part of the time it was just a bunch of people riding.

[00:51:35] But when you start to understand how complicated it is, then it becomes. Quite and how strategic it is, then it becomes interesting. So like anything, the more you can delve into something, it's like Formula One, um, and maybe even more so because there's so many more variables in terms of it's much easier to pass on a road cycling than it is on a, on a Formula One track.

[00:51:58] Sarah: But again, it's back to that [00:52:00] thing about the team and the, the extent of the back team that you don't see, like the, I mean, it's not even the engineer or the person, you know, or, or the people that are changing the tires. People that, oh, it's not the, it's so much deeper than that. It's everybody in the factory.

[00:52:16] It's that, you know, it's massive. To round things out. This has been fantastic. I really, you know, I, I'm, I hugely appreciate your time and your insights and it's so interesting to hear how you have pulled together your own experiences to provide, uh, the expertise organizations and help them to explore and dig into how their culture exists, what their values are, how they to use them, and that, and how.

[00:52:42] Transform the way that they, they work and the way that their colleagues interact with each other. So Thank you. Um, the final question that I always ask all of our guests, um, Ruth, speaking to you as a human, what's exciting you at the moment and what are you looking forward to? What's motivating you?

[00:52:59] Either, [00:53:00] either in work or out of work?

[00:53:01] Ruth: Well, out of work? I think, um, you know, I'm, um, so I'm my own. Modest cycling career itself. Most of it is in, is indoors at the moment, but I'm improving my results. So I'm excited to see this year as a year where I improve sits much more. Um, and, and also spend a bit more time maybe cycling in another country on the road with my group of friends.

[00:53:28] Um, I think it, it just staying fit and, and actually being really active. It's so important. I think people don't realize how important it's, and the older you get, the more important it is because it, your quality of life is immeasurably better when you can go out and do things. From the professional perspective, um, I think, you know, I, I really enjoy the work that I'm doing and I'm also enjoying trying to.

[00:53:57] Uh, I know, and I don't know if I can [00:54:00] consider myself a provocateur anymore because I think this is more mainstream now than it ever was, but really just trying to continue to shape the, the approach through speaking at conferences and writing a bit. And, uh, yeah, just to try to leave my mark on this general area.

[00:54:20] Uh. You know, so leave it in a better place. I think I have a bit of a, I like to leave every place that I've been, you know, I'm in a better shape than when I found it, which is why I pick up litter on the street in my neighborhood all the time. But

[00:54:33] Sarah: yeah, I love it.

[00:54:34] Ruth: I, so I hope that I will, in the long term, have made it, made it had an impact and then I can continue to do that this year.

[00:54:42] Uh, so I think I focused mainly on. The, you know, the what, what, what is positive and touching people in a positive way.

[00:54:50] Sarah: Absolutely. Well, yeah, that's a fantastic answer. And I, and I, I really, you know, wish you all the best with that and I hope you succeed with it because the work that you're doing makes such [00:55:00] a positive difference, such a positive impact.

[00:55:02] And, um, even if it's at a conference, somebody has a bit of a spark of an idea. You never find out about, um, if that makes a difference to how culture starts to evolve in their organizations or the way that they work with their colleagues. That's immense. Those are the things that really, it's like, you know, butterfly.

[00:55:21] I think those are the things that really can influence. And the work that you're doing is setting such a, a great example for that. So thank you for the work and thank you for talking to us. Well, thank you for

[00:55:35] Ruth: giving me an opportunity to get my thoughts out there. I really appreciate it and I've really enjoyed again, our conversation, Inuit.

[00:55:42] Sarah: Well, that's been great and um, bye for [00:56:00] now.